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Viv P
New Member
Australia
7 Posts |
 Posted - 07/07/2008 : 2:41:21 PM
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Dear all,
I'm a newbie who has been following this forum for some time with interest, and feel the time has come to offer a contribution as the person who researched and found the location at Pentridge of the remains transferred there from the OMG in 1929.
Until last year I was the project manager for the Pentridge Heritage Museum out at the former prison, but the museum has been shelved for the moment. Prior to this role, I had been in another senior position there, and came across a hand written document that indicated there were two burial sites. While overseeing civil engineering works on the prison farm subdivision, I also undertook a detailed investigation into where the first burial site be might located, which eventually led to HV issuing a permit to excavate.
It transpired that the first burial site was used until 1951, and a new area was allocated from about 1961, which was found to contain only the remains of Ronald Ryan.(February 3, 1967).
You might be interested to know how the remains came to be re-buried out at Pentridge, as this was touched on by KC2000 recently on another thread. In 1853 minor bushranger George Melville was executed at the OMG, after a gold guard was killed in a hold-up on the McIvor Highway near Heathcote, and KC2000 correctly detailed the bizarre events thereafter when his young wife claimed the body. Due to delays with Victoria being an outpost of Old Blighty, it wasn't until June 6, 1855 that legislation (to save further Govt embarrassment) came into Law, regulating the conduct of executions, with the body then becaming the property of the state. After an autopsy, it had to be buried within 8 hours of execution in unconsecrated ground within the prison walls. Therefore, in 1929 when part of the OMG burial ground was required for building works, the nearby remains were exhumed and transferred to Pentridge, in accordance with that Law. However, this same Law was repealed on April 29, 1975 when the Hamer Govt abolished capital punishment, and hence there was no requirement to move the remains to yet another operating prison before Pentridge was sold.
Regarding the skull in WA, according to detailed research in which I was involved, executed prisoner Ernest Knox's coffin was dropped by the site labourers doing the exhumations, and an onlooker bolted with the skull that fell out, probably thinking it was Ned Kelly's, due to the EK intials on the marker stone. (That person obviously wasn't aware that Ned's skull was reported as having not been buried with his body.) There followed a public outcry in the papers of the day, and the Govt appointed undertakers from Sydney Rd Brunswick to complete the exhumations.
They duly delivered three large crates of remains to the Clerk of Works at Pentridge, and it is clearly documented that Ned's remains were in one of those burial boxes. Interestingly, his same burial box contained the remains of all four women executed at the OMG, being Elizabeth Scott (1863), Emma Williams (1894), Frances Knorr (1894) and Martha Needle (1895).
And of course, Pentridge received two sets of remains, each bearing the initials EK, minus their skulls.
And there is another part of the Pentridge story in that prison records show Ned worked for a while in the forge there in 1873, whilst an inmate for a horse theft matter. It will never be truly known, but could that experience have sowed the seed of thought for the armour ?.
I had been intending to share with the renowned author on the subject now residing in NE Vic., but have recently felt that the descendents firstly, then historians and keen students of the Kelly story who participate in this forum, should have a chance to evaluate this small contribution.
Please feel free to ask any questions on this, or any other aspect of the 150 year history of Pentridge.
Regards,
Viv.
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kellycountry2000
Forum Admin
Australia
282 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 3:25:08 PM
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Viv
1. Do you know where the remains are, that were recently removed from pentridge, were they all removed and what is happening to them ?
2. I get a few questions at the OMG about the 4 hanged women, what was the documention that told us that they and Ned were in the same box ? and were they reburied seperately ?
thanks
KC2000 |
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Kelvyn
Senior Member
Australia
54 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 3:44:45 PM
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Viv, the info is very interesting, and important to the topic of Ned's final resting place.
You say:
"They duly delivered three large crates of remains to the Clerk of Works at Pentridge, and it is clearly documented that Ned's remains were in one of those burial boxes. Interestingly, his same burial box contained the remains of all four women executed at the OMG, being Elizabeth Scott (1863), Emma Williams (1894), Frances Knorr (1894) and Martha Needle (1895).
And of course, Pentridge received two sets of remains, each bearing the initials EK, minus their skulls".
My questions are :
1. Where is the documentation now?,
2. Is it available for perusal ?,and
3. In which burial box were the remains of Edward Knox ?
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Viv P
New Member
Australia
7 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2008 : 9:40:29 PM
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Hi Again,
Firstly KC2000, right as of today I am not sure where the remains are, but seeing they were on private land, and therefore not bound by the Cemeteries and Cremetoriums Act, they came under the jurisdiction of the Coroner's Court. I understand a medical examination has taken place to date the remains, so the CC can be sure that no other items of a suspicious nature were tucked in with the OMG remains, for the possible concealment of a crime.
The documentation that came into my hands that led to all this is untitled, but it has been accepted by HV as an authentic document, which could only have been created within Pentridge, and most likely by the Clerk of Works. Serious assessment was made of it before a permit to excavate was issued. The burial box listed as containing the remains of Ned Kelly; the four women and others including Frederick Deeming, was buried at Pentridge exactly as it was delivered there by the undertakers.
And Kelvyn,
1.There are three copies of the documentation: one of which is with the Pentridge developer, one with HV, and one I have lodged in a security location.
2.It's not been available for perusal, and not that it is being kept as any great secret, but it's just that the document hasn't been known of for anyone to request to look at it. My copy was earmarked for display at the Pentridge Heritage Museum.
3.Edward Knox was listed as in the second, or middle burial box, with some non-high profile remains, and some listed as "unknown".
Best regards,
Viv.
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antmc
Advanced Member
Australia
110 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 2:54:07 PM
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Hi Viv,
Fantastic stuff and very interesting.
It was great to read your chronological story of Ned's remains.
My guess is, if the government doesn't know what to do with the remains, then the family should be agitating publicly (with support from community minded Kelly researchers like us) just what should be done. i.e; Greta Cemetery, etc.
Regards,
antmc |
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Ellen Hollow
Senior Member
Australia
25 Posts |
Posted - 13/07/2008 : 4:16:57 PM
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Antmac,
There is problem with your idea that the family should be agitating for Ned's remains to be placed some where permanent.
Firstly you are looking at three families. Those of Maggie, Kate and Grace. Approximately a hundred adults from the combined families at this point in time.
Secondly who should make such a decision ...the oldest? or by consensus?
Every adult family member should have the right to vote for the resting place, but would that satisfy every person? I doubt it.
Then who should take on the role of contacting every person? In other words who has the right to believe they are the person who is the most important descendant and thus take on such a role.
If a place were chosen by consensus it would be public knowledge, every one has a best friend, how long before the souvenir takers would move in to raid the grave?
Currently those burial places at Greta are unmarked for good reason.
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LOLA ROWE nee LLOYD
New Member
Australia
8 Posts |
Posted - 13/07/2008 : 8:01:22 PM
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ELLEN, thank you, you have answered well. With 100 descendents of
KATE, GRACE AND MAGGIE, it would be a big ask to have all agree on the burial of Neds remains. My thoughts would not be Greta owing to
vandalism.. BUT I am sure Neds Mother Ellen and family would have liked to see their Son & Brother have a Christian burial, this would be a great step.. Lola R |
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Viv P
New Member
Australia
7 Posts |
Posted - 14/07/2008 : 01:47:11 AM
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In regard to these queries as to the remains recently exhumed from the former Pentridge prison, due to the deteriorated condition of the coffins, it would have taken expenditure in the order of $200,000 to test every single item recovered in order to put the remains into sets of individual persons. The Govt subsequently declined to meet this cost.
To treat everyone equally, even if the remains were put in individual sets, after all this time it would be virtually impossible to trace the descendants of all the persons exhumed, establish their bonefides, and DNA match each set of remains to prove the right remains were being released to the right family. Such an exercise, as touched on by Ellen, would also have great potential to create unwanted conflict within the descendant families.
The Govt has agreed to cover the cost of a respectful memorial garden at Pentridge, and my guess is that all the remains will be re-buried there, and the site will eventually be opened for public display, in conjunction with the Pentridge Heritage Museum. Being part of the Heritage Museum will ensure the site's appropriate upkeep, and provide a necessary element of security. Of course it would be public knowledge that Ned's remains could not be identified separately to all the others, should anyone be thinking of mischief.
I hope it will offer some comfort to Ned's family that the whereabouts of his remains has been clarified, and that he is likely to rest in a better place than he had since 1929, which as a matter of record, was beneath an internal prison road behind the number plate factory.
Viv.
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Ellen Hollow
Senior Member
Australia
25 Posts |
Posted - 14/07/2008 : 10:02:39 AM
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Thanks for that info Viv. I hope that settles the debate.
As to a Christian Burial may be Fr Peter Norden might say a few appropriate words at a suitable time. |
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antmc
Advanced Member
Australia
110 Posts |
Posted - 14/07/2008 : 11:44:52 AM
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Hi Viv,
Thinking about it, the suggestion you mentioned seems to make the best sense and also seems to be the most appropriate.
If his remains were to be removed from Pentridge to go somewhere else there would need to be some sort of consultation with the family (like what happened with Ronald Ryan)and the ladies have already proven that this would be an arduous task.
Also the Victorian Police Force would also be concerned that if his remains were to be moved to any other location that it wasn't to a place that would 'glorify' a person who, extensively, was tried and convicted of the largest police massacre in Victoria's history.
So my next question is......
do you have an update on the progress of the 'Pentridge Heritage Museum'. Has the project been shelved or deferred?
Regards,
antmc |
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Viv P
New Member
Australia
7 Posts |
Posted - 14/07/2008 : 11:36:19 PM
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Firstly, thank you Ellen, and yes I have spoken with Fr Peter Norden and am aware of his strong and long held views on the Pentridge remains.
Antmc, the Victorian Police Museum management is up to speed with events, and the Pentridge Heritage Museum is deferred until remedial and roadworks are completed in the "D" Division precinct, thus freeing the site of its current "restricted access" work area status. Apart from the former gallows, "D" Division, opened in 1894, and of 198 cells, is a building of incredible history, most interesting architecture, beautiful stonework, and a stunning timber panelled ceiling reminiscent of a church. It will be a very fitting place indeed for the Museum, and to capture the atmosphere of Pentridge.
Regards,
Viv. |
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antmc
Advanced Member
Australia
110 Posts |
Posted - 15/07/2008 : 1:43:45 PM
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It all sounds great Viv.
Does that mean it won't include 'H' Division?
Do you have a 'ball park' timeline of when it is likely to be up and running? |
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Ellen Hollow
Senior Member
Australia
25 Posts |
Posted - 15/07/2008 : 4:23:22 PM
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| Thanks Viv, I am so glad you spoke to Fr Norden, that was very quick! I really think that will satisfy most of the players. |
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Viv P
New Member
Australia
7 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2008 : 2:31:12 PM
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To clarify Ellen, Fr Peter had been concerned for a long time over the unkempt condition of the (then) known gravesite at Pentridge, and I had met up with him to explain that the reason was that the area was going to be left undeveloped until a new road, Pentridge Boulevard, was constructed. It was still thought then that the OMG remains were in that same grave site, and we didn't want any special treatment that would ID it for wrong doers. I had already noticed with concern that the facsimile helmet used for the tours, and plaque from the local historical society had been stolen by people with bolt cutters who had breached the perimeter fence. Fr Nordern made contact from time to time to check on progress, and I am confident he will be pleased that eventually all those buried at Pentridge will have their names recorded as to their last resting place. He was on site when Ronald Ryan's remains were exhumed.
Antmc, Pentridge was divided into two sections when two of the purchasing partners wanted to go their separate ways, and the section with the main gate in Champ Street, known as Piazza, and containing H Division, is now owned by a joint venture of Valad and Aberdeen Properties. Pentridge Village owns the remainder, including all the southern section and the prison farm, and this company has undertaken to produce the museum. When Pentridge Boulevard is completed later this year then a time frame can be decided for the museum. Also, H Division is a long way away from D Division, so even if both were owned by the same party, it probably wouldn't be practical to have the museum tours cover so much ground.
Regards,
Viv. |
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stevejager
Senior Member
Australia
53 Posts |
Posted - 20/07/2008 : 10:32:18 PM
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Viv,
Thankyou.
from Steve Jager |
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robert mcgarrigle
Senior Member
Australia
42 Posts |
Posted - 21/07/2008 : 7:27:05 PM
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| Many thanks to Viv,Ellen etc on this very important debate on Neds remains.For members,I would like to inform you that there is a show on Channel 7 at 7-30 pm tomorrow night on Ned Kelly in Sydney.I don't know wether it is being shown in Victoria,I imagine it would be.The basis of the show is psychics recent connections with Ned & the recent Pentridge discovery of the remains found.I believe it may be well worth watching & discussing after viewing.I hope Viv you will be able to watch it & let us know if it is similar to the info.that you have kindly provided to us. |
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Viv P
New Member
Australia
7 Posts |
Posted - 23/07/2008 : 12:54:12 AM
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Hi Robert,
Yes I watched tonight's "The One" TV show, and to me it was just about entertainment, rather than any new facts. They just had a stroll in the mud and made their show. After all, the OMG remains had been removed from the site before Easter, and the ground surveyed and pegged for construction works, so there was nothing for the "psychics" to find.
The facts given by the Historian were quite accurate, and in accordance with the details given here.
Telling was that when the "psychics" passed by F division of 1858, where the apparition of a lady in a billowing dress climbing the internal stairs had been reported and recorded by night wardens over many years, there was no reaction at all. The dormitory at the top of the stairs had for a time been where expectant inmate mothers gave birth.
Fortunatly in locating the 80ft x 24ft (imperial plans) gravesite with the OMG remains, the decision to excavate was strictly evidence based and verified by forensic archeology. If we'd employed "psychics" we might have had to dig over the entire surrounding 28 acres.
Regards,
Viv. |
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Katrina
Senior Member
Australia
20 Posts |
Posted - 23/07/2008 : 6:58:38 PM
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Hello,
Thank you Viv for all your information. It is great to have some closure to so many unanswered questions.
During the "The One" show last night the historian said something about Ned having a pocket watch in the prision and that he showed it off to the other prisioners. Did Ned actually have the watch in the prision or was he only reported talking about it? I thuoght Ned or someone had returned the watch to the victims wife/family?
Are the general public able to get involved with the Pentridge Heritage Museum?
Regards,
Katrina |
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Viv P
New Member
Australia
7 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2008 : 12:41:05 AM
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Hi Katrina,
I have just examined my copy of the 1855 law to regulate the execution of prisoners, and it doesn't mention what was to happen with personal possessions. So if an item was not allocated beforehand, it would have been dealt with in accordance with the deceased's Will. Perhaps the answer on the pocket watch is to be found in one of the Ned Kelly books.
Regarding general public involvement in the Pentridge Heritage Museum, such as the volunteers I read of who assisted recently at Glenrowan, the problem will be that the museum precinct will be a designated construction zone. Therefore only red card accredited trades people and management will be legally able to enter the work site. Things have changed over the years since I was project manager of the Gold Museum attached to Sovereign Hill, where we were able to call on the helpful assistance of local gold historians without restriction.
Regards,
Viv
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Ned's Most Recent Resting Place.