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ChrisR
Advanced Member
Australia
145 Posts |
 Posted - 05/07/2008 : 11:18:10 PM
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We all know that the Kelly gang consisted of Ned, Dan, Steve and Joe, but has anyone got any information about John Hart, known Kelly sympathiser and horsethief. I have a reference from a police report written in December 1878, that is held at PROV, that implies John Hart was identified as being present at Stringbark Creek when the gang confronted the police.
There has been much written about Tom Lloyd jnr rumoured as being the fifth member of the gang and that there may have also been another person present at Stringbark too, but this has not been substantiated.
Does anyone have any documented references that have been substantiated about this?
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Edited by - ChrisR on 22/07/2008 10:47:45 PM |
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bill denheld
Advanced Member
Australia
94 Posts |
 Posted - 10/07/2008 : 09:09:17 AM
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Hello ChrisR,
A belated welcome to the forum as I see you have posted previously.
I acknowledge our previous correspondence by email regarding John Hart. I am sure the readers will be pondering over your question regarding who was present at Stringybark Kelly / police encounter.
I cannot add to this question but maybe someone will enlighten us all.
Bill
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Kelvyn
Advanced Member
Australia
86 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2008 : 7:26:39 PM
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| Could Bill or ChrisR provide a transcript of the police report with a reference(s) to John Hart and if possible the PROV citation of the document please. |
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ChrisR
Advanced Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2008 : 10:46:02 PM
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Hi Kelvyn,
As you can see by Bill's posting above, I have spoken to him about this and sent him a copy. He suggested that I post the query here about John Hart about the information contained in the record held at PROV.
I have printed out the file as it is a large pdf and is easier to read when printed. The section in question spreads over from page 5 to page 6, when Constable Mullane is writing about how John Hart and his cousin, Robert Ellis, alias Robert Whitnall were confronted at Laffins Hotel, Wallen in December 1878, trying to sell stolen horses. As Mullane continues in his writing, he carries over the page and in those days it was common practice to fold the pages to form an envelope and write on the area that was not exposed to the outside. (I have folded the copies I have to verify this). The paragraphs that mentions the description is written by a Superintendant, number T9651 and is written on a folded section.
The police report by Mullane is dated 4th December 1878 and deals extensively with John Hart and Robert Ellis. If Steve Hart was involved with trying to sell stolen horses at Wallen, he is not mentioned in this police report, only John Hart and Robert Ellis.
Part of the transcript reads:
"The people about Wallen are strongly under the impression that Kelly's party sent these horses for sale by Hart and Ellis and that Hart is one of the party who attacked Sgt.Kennedy. He answers the description given by Macintrye in every particular."
I believe John Hart had the cousin, Robert Ellis, not Steve Hart. Can any one verify this?
This record at PROV is a compilation of different police reports, telegrams and memos that involve John Hart. There are other records that also feature his other cousins, the Stricklands, Mcguinnes' and the Woods.
I have been doing some family history on my g-g-grandfather, Henry Hart and have recently been told by another member of the Hart clans, that John Hart may have infact been the brother to Henry Hart. They both share the same parents, John Hart and Mary Anne Ring and grandfather, Robert Hart. This has been difficult to find as records were not kept up to date.
The record at PROV is located at the following link:
http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/veo-download?objectId=090fe273801189dc&format=pdf&docTitle=Image&encodingId=Revision-2-Document-1-Encoding-1-DocumentData
You may need to copy and paste into the browser if the hyperlink doesn't work.
See what you think Kelvyn. Good to hear from you again Bill.
Chris
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Edited by - ChrisR on 10/07/2008 10:51:13 PM |
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Kelvyn
Advanced Member
Australia
86 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2008 : 4:02:52 PM
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Chris, thanks for the link.
Nowhere in the info displayed from the link address is a specific reference to whereabout in the PROV archives the series of documents is located. Can you advise of the PROV citation for these records?
About Hart and being at Stringybark Creek.
I have not in all my work found any statement, "guess", rumour etc that he was there. The only thing is that when the boys were working their land/gold panning etc it may have been probable that others would have visited and/or stayed there with the boys at different times, and maybe Hart was one of them.. but like some other things "Kelly" its all just supposition, without any "proof".
Here are the descriptions, as prepared by the police, of the 4 men at Stringybark Creek:
A Criminal Offence Report with descriptions of the murderers of Constables Scanlan & Lonigan is prepared by the Police:
1st Edward Kelly 23 years of age looks older sallow complexion dark brown hair full beard and moustache of a dirty dark red colour moustache cut square with greenish tint wore dark tweed clothes & red silk sash dark low crowned hat.
2nd Daniel Kelly 17 years of age looks older 5 ft 5 or 6 inches high very dark hair and complexion small dark piercing eyes beard not grown.
3rd name unknown 21 years of age 5 ft 9 inches high very fair hair and complexion fair beard & moustache beard on chin thin features beard and moustache very fine like of first growth respectable looking supposed identical with Charley Brown well known among the Wrights and Harts on the Broken River.
4th man unknown about 19 or 20 years of age 5ft 8 high rather stout complexion somewhat fair no beard or whiskers a few straggling hairs growing over face rather hooked nose sinister expression
all identifiable warrants have been issued for the offenders and £200 reward offered by the Government for each of the offenders [PROV, VPRS 4965, Unit 5, Items 352 & 384]
and:
Bench warrants pursuant to the Felons Apprehension Act are issued for Edward and Dan Kelly and the two men whose names were unknown but were supposed to be Charles Brown and William King.
Descriptions of Charles Brown and William King appear in the Supreme Court notifications that appear in the Government Gazette and country newspapers.
The first is described as: nineteen or twenty years of age, five feet eight inches high, rather stout, complexion somewhat fair, no beard or whiskers, a few straggling hairs over face, rather hooked nose, sinister expression, supposed to be identical with William King, of Greta, in the said colony.
The other is described as Twenty-one years of age, five feet nine inches high, very fair beard long on chin, fair complexion, hair and moustache: supposed to be identical with Charles Brown, of King River, in the said colony.
A summons is also issued for each of the four men requiring them to surrender on or before the twelfth day of November, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-eight, at Mansfield, in the said colony of Victoria, to abide your trial for the beforementioned crime of which you so stand accused, and hereof you are not to fail at your peril. [PROV, VPRS 4969, Unit 1, Item 61]
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ChrisR
Advanced Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2008 : 4:25:10 PM
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Kelvyn,
This is the series detail from PROV:
300 Reports: Goldspink and Oakham, Kelly sympathisers & Horse stealing case a...
Kelly Historical Collection - Part 1 Police Branch
VPRS 4965/P0000/4
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ChrisR
Advanced Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 27/03/2009 : 5:06:41 PM
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Kelvyn,
Did you ever get to look at this? Just checking past posts to follow-up.
ChrisR |
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John Hart at Stringybark Creek